S7E7: Creating Occult Communities Via Discord

Feb 25, 2023

Andrieh Vitimus, Zachary Lui, and a panel from the Occult Living Room discuss building an occult community via discord and everything around it in this episode. They talk about the importance of community and how to create a thriving one. They also discuss the challenges and obstacles that come with building an online community. This is a great episode for anyone who is interested in building an occult community.

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Show Notes

[00:06:12] “Toronto’s Buddhist Shrine: Ready to Connect”
[00:23:02] “The Marketing Genius Behind the Occult Legends”
[00:27:20] “Marketing demons hindering spiritual professionals’ livelihoods”
[00:30:58] “Balancing self-growth and helping others spiritually”
[00:34:14] “When Profit Motives Overshadow Creative Passion”
[00:35:58] “Fame, Glory, and Riches Aren’t the Same”
[00:38:11] “Clout vs. Effective Occultism: Which Wins?”
[00:42:32] “Intention vs Outcome: Ethics in Community Commerce”
[00:47:36] “Persuasive sales pitch for safe occult space”
[00:53:00] “The Costs and Benefits of Traditional Products”

Scroll Below For Transcript

Intro : Open the door. Open the door. Open the door. Open the door. Yeah. Deeper down the rabbit hole. Saturday 06:00 p.m live in Toronto, Ontario at the Queen City Curio Occult and Spiritual Store. 


Andrieh Vitimus: Welcome, everybody. Today only one of us one of us is at 607 Gerrard Street East because I had a near COVID contact. So I have to isolate otherwise, otherwise I would be there.


Zachary Lui : Yes, you would. Andrieh has cut off. So with that, he’ll come back right on, right? He’s having a little bit of Internet problems. He’ll pop on right away. So with that, Andrieh has had a close contact with COVID unfortunately. So with that, the event tomorrow, which is a Michael Archangel ritual to purify negativity, is going to be postponed and we are going to reschedule that for any in person. So tomorrow is rescheduled to the week after for the Michael ritual.


Andrieh Vitimus: Yeah, you can see what happens. I dropped right there. And that gets to our point about live radio. Like, as we were saying, as we say every week, we are not just a podcast. Our roots are not in podcasts. It’s in live radio. Stuff happens. Internet breaks.


Zachary Lui : Yes, it does.


Andrieh Vitimus: Guests say stuff that they don’t want to say or stuff that really actually makes them look really different. And I can see today that I might have to put a little, I don’t know on my screen instead of because it looked like a bad Japanese video.


Zachary Lui : Are there bad Japanese videos, sir? Is there ever a bad Japanese video?


Andrieh Vitimus: Well, you know, like Godzilla video. The dubbing is like way off from the mouth. So it’s like a bad dub Japanese video, which in itself, when watching you could be like, this is interesting. I don’t know why it’s giving kind of interesting, at least I’m not sure why it’s giving me so many problems today. But it is. All right, so it is. I think I’ll drop just for myself down from full resolution, though, if it’ll let me. But it’s giving me problems. So you might have to actually control this more than me.


Zachary Lui : Sure, that idea.


Andrieh Vitimus : Live radio, right?


Zachary Lui : Live radio. Live video radio.


Andrieh Vitimus : Live video radio. All things happen all at once. Do you know there’s a drinking game with our old show because we were doing live radio?


Zachary Lui : Yeah, we used to do a drinking game, didn’t we?


Andrieh Vitimus : Occasionally or no, other people had a drinking game. Other people had a drinking game where if there was a technical issue, they would drink. If guests said something that they didn’t want to say and they’re like, can I take that back? You had a drink. Double drink.


Zachary Lui: I did not know we had that. People listening on that podcast, bring this back, bring this back. Let us know. Yes.


Andrieh Vitimus : Oh, yeah. It was definitely like we were live radio and if somebody would be like all of a sudden would cut out or stuff like that because of live radio drinking you have to take a shot, right? Yeah. It was a whole drinking game around the show because it was live radio to get these occultists who like, come on, they’re writing books. We asked a hard question. If we get somebody to stop and pause for a few minutes, because they’re like, I really don’t know how to answer that. You have to double drink. That was another one. Double drink. Yeah.


 Sasha Smith : Everybody was shitfaced at the end of the show.


Andrieh Vitimus : We weren’t. But yes, lots of people did in fact get shitfaced at the end of the live show. Kind of funny, actually. That is yes. People are saying they’d be in trouble. Yeah. Now, usually we got some of the technical difficulties taken care of when I started taking over it. Although today that’s failing. But that’s just how it is some days. Hopefully you can hear me. My video doesn’t really matter that much. I’ll try not to move.


Jayme Rose : Yeah, your audio is fine.


Zachary Lui : Yeah, your audio is great.


 Sasha Smith : Completely still for me. Just completely still. And you can keep the same resolution.


Andrieh Vitimus [00:04:48]:


Well, see, this website won’t even let me change the resolution.


Zachary Lui : Yeah, I’m not seeing that right now. So is what it is.


Andrieh Vitimus : It is what it is. As long as you can hear me, I can’t even see everyone else. It’s like sort of stopping halfway and then starting.


Zachary Lui : I can see everyone. So we’re good.


Andrieh Vitimus : We’re good then?


Jayme Rose : Yeah.


Andrieh Vitimus : So we covered the fact that we are not going to actually be doing the micro ritual because, well, the disease that everyone thinks is done is not. So I have to actually quarantine in my fine office. So no Michael ritual till next week. So if you’re coming to the store and you’re watching the show live just next week, we’ll do the Michael ritual next week. Zac will still teach his pendulums class. I’ll do the Michael ritual.


Zachary Lui : It’s all good.


Andrieh Vitimus : It’s just one week later. Yeah, you can come for the whole day then, and then hang out, hopefully between buying stuff. So if you’re worried I’m not worried, but if you’re in Toronto, 607 Gerrard Street. Fourth Floor. East Chinatown, Toronto. That’s where it’s at. Rituals every other week. Live rituals. We’ve got two shrines.


Zachary Lui : Yes, we do. Technically three. Technically three.


Andrieh Vitimus : The third one is not built yet. It doesn’t count. The third community shrine doesn’t count yet because it’s not built. But I consider that the dead shrine is working.


Zachary Lui : Definitely active. It’s operational.


Andrieh Vitimus : The Buddhist shrine has the first Buddha, actually consecrated Buddha on it. That we consecrated, ready and ready to go. So, like, those two shrines are ready to go. Buddhist prayer shrine, which is a mini temple space, and our ancestor altar. So if you come to Toronto, there’s lots of stuff to do. You don’t even have to buy anything. You don’t even have to come in the store. It’s in the hall. It’s all in the community space. That you can just kind of sit there and pray and do what you need to do. And there’s QR code instructions right on the spot. So you can just kind of get basic magical instructions on how to actually connect with your ancestors. There will be a Buddhist one, too, of how to actually do the mantra work for each Buddhist spirit that’s out there. The next one that will go on our Buddhist altar is going to be Guanyin, and we’re going to make a talisman for Guanyin and then put it on there. The one that’s currently there is the Sun Buddha, which is Dainichi, which is sort of the Creator Buddha or Creator Buddha spirit. We’re in East Chinatown, so you got to kind of expect you should say.


Zachary Lui : They should say hi to the Buddhists, right?


 Sasha Smith : Yeah.


Andrieh Vitimus : I mean, when you’re in Rome, you do what the Romans do when you’re in East Chinatown, right. You have a Buddhist shrine. I mean, it kind of has to be that way, otherwise we’d be failing, like our big trouble in Little China whole motif.


Zachary Lui : I know we got to live up to it. So if people are wondering what the motif is, that’s our motif.


 Sasha Smith : I was going to say, too, that there’s going to be that article up soon about the ancestors. So look for that maybe in the next week or so. You sent me the pictures. I’ve been meaning to do it. So it could be something that you can showcase and maybe it can really put it together and kind of let people know what it’s about. But that will be up hopefully later this week on the website.


Andrieh Vitimus : Right. That gets to who we have here today, which I don’t know if they got introduced or not yet because not yet.


Zachary Lui : Not yet.


Andrieh Vitimus : Right. So who we have today is we have all the people coming on from the occult living room, which is a community kind of occult ground up group. We’re going to kind of talk about that a little. And yeah, one of the things that I submitted a couple of articles on, well, demons in relation to what Chaos Tarot said, I just have to have one little thing. Have you paid your dues? Yes, sir. The check is in the mail. The people who get that will get that. Or the China is here, Mr. Burton.


Zachary Lui : Yes.


Andrieh Vitimus : So Chaos Tarot, if you really want to see something funny, go look up lou pan style on YouTube. It’s hilarious. Yeah. Yes, it was lou pan style. You’ll see it, you’ll appreciate its awesomeness. So that said, we have today all the people from the cult living room. Not all the people. There’s probably a couple of hundred, actually.


Zachary Lui : But we got the two representatives today.


Andrieh Vitimus : Yeah, there’s more representatives, too, I think, but we have the leader and a representative. How about that?


 Sasha Smith : I don’t know if I like leader. I can be the cat herder facilitator.


Andrieh Vitimus : How about Facilitator?


 Sasha Smith: I like curator. That was what I came up with.


Andrieh Vitimus : Curator. Okay. Curator. Although it really is more like a facilitator. You sort of, like, prod people to kind of facilitate I do some facilitating, that’s for sure. Or prod people to sort of do something and then sort of curate mostly prod people.


 Sasha Smith : Yeah, like an astral cattle prod. It’s kind of like this, but yeah, I would accept that title, whatever you would want to call that. I could do that. And then Jamie is what would you describe yourself as? You’re just a contributor.


Jayme Rose: Yeah, contributor and an admin for the server. Those are the two big things that I do. I write stuff, and I also prod people, but more so when they are in wrong channel or something like that.


 Sasha Smith: Yeah. Subtle prodding.


Andrieh Vitimus: Subtle prodding. Now, full disclosure, I have done interviews, and I have written a couple of articles and provided materials for other articles. Yeah. Boris says that you are our loving, glorious, caring dictator. Okay.


 Sasha Smith: I don’t even know who Boris is necessarily, but I can guess, and I appreciate that.


Andrieh Vitimus: He gave you a black heart.


 Sasha Smith: That doesn’t say that much. Actually, I know a few different black heart emoji people, so it doesn’t narrow it down that much. But yes. Thank you, Boris.


Andrieh Vitimus: So maybe you’re on the path to world domination. I mean, the black heart got the motif, the black character.


 Sasha Smith: It’s the first step, I think. Yeah. Should I tell you or should I introduce the occult living room a little bit about the concept? Because I think we could segue to the discord into the online community building aspect. So I would say that when I first started the occult living room, I was very discouraged and frustrated when I would go to social media places and I would see, for example, like reddit or like Facebook, and there would be like a lot of times, newcomers. 


Somebody might ask question, and then on top of that, they might misspell a word or they might phrase something awkwardly, but you might know what they meant. And I felt like these people would really like I don’t know, they would have so much scrutiny on them, and you’d have the vultures come out, and people would be incredibly rude to a lot of these people. And I feel like with the occult, it’s a very selective thing. And I feel like if we’ve all found our way here, then can we just kind of be a little bit more respectful? Can we try to help each other? And I essentially thought about this blog and discord, like, this problem to be there and also just for the good vibes, just to have somewhere to hang out and to not feel like someone’s looking over your shoulder, making sure that you don’t say anything incorrectly or, like you can’t be open about things if you’re at a different level of experience. 


So that was my idea initially when I made, like, a casting call for the blog, and people seemed to really resonate with it. There are a lot of people that were like, hey, I felt the same way, but I didn’t think about doing anything about it or I read it and I stay Facebook, or people definitely understood this, and it really just resonated with a lot of people. I felt like immediately when I found Jamie and a good chunk of the people that are still with it, and that was about a little bit over a year and a half ago, and it’s been for over a year, and it’s been doing very well. We’ve been very pleased with the response, with the community on the discord, with the progress we’ve all been making so personally and as a book. So what could you add to that? Jamie, you were on the other side when I was doing the casting call.


Jayme Rose: Yeah, so for me, I’ve always enjoyed writing things, and since I found the occult, I really absorbed as much knowledge as I could. But I came right around before the witch talk wave of influx, so to speak. And a lot of the information I gathered was very difficult because as someone who was in the broom closet, I couldn’t just buy whatever foundational books there were. All of my information I had to just gather online, and I found it was extremely difficult to actually cobble together any practical advice through the different dogmas that people could have or UPG being presented as fact. 


I wished that I could take what I have learned and present it to people in a more coherent way. And then I was just on Reddit one day and I saw this person saying, hey, starting this website and I need authors. And at the time I was 17, so I was like, I know I’m young, but these are the things that I think I can offer. And from there, it went off pretty fast, honestly. I mean, I wasn’t expecting I wasn’t expecting it to go as far as let me put it that way. You just see a random post that someone on Reddit is starting a website, you’re kind of like, okay, that seems interesting, but it’s really become a huge part of my life, and it’s grown to be a lot more than I originally expected, and it’s been really awesome.


Andrieh Vitimus: I mean, one point that Chaos Tarot makes is that people try that all the time for profit. Although, officially speaking, we’re a store, so we like profit.


Zachary Lui: We do.


Andrieh Vitimus: But the fact that the intentions were actually poor, that pure, that kind of led into a lot more success. And that could be true because that leads into some of the questions of the egregore that backs up the kind of the discord and the general process because the intentions are better. Maybe the egregore itself is sort of helping to keep things going and keeping things going in a better way with sort of regulating the culture of people who kind of participate and who don’t.


 Sasha Smith: Yeah, I think the egregore is definitely a part of it, and it’s a culmination of a lot of things. We were talking about it earlier, and I was thinking, yeah, maybe what Chaos Tarot said is true in that way, that it’s been done before. But I think that maybe there’s a bit of a flair. And I’ve away had to do art. I’ve always had to do music. And when I started this blog, I wanted the aesthetic to be a lot different. And I had seen too many blogs. 


This kind of, like Old English had this cutesy kind of cartoonish look about it. But then it also had some hard hitting articles, like, it wasn’t necessarily like the content was all fluffy. I really like that aesthetic, and I think that aesthetic is even more effective when you’ve got some stuff like your article recently on folklore or there’s been some kind of deeper ones where I felt like someone that just came to the website and they saw that they were probably not expecting such high quality content. And I think the aesthetic can serve us well in that way, too, that people can look at it and instantly tell that it’s a little bit different. Because with some other blogs I’ve seen that were similar, some ways, I felt like the aesthetic was not unique enough to maybe convey that, and it got lost in the mix. And it’s one thing that definitely stands out and something that also gotten some complaints about or that I feel like some people, it turns them off, and I’m happy. If they those Old English fonts on their occult blogs, they can go to those blogs. It’s all right too. 


So I think ultimately there’s been several things at play that have contributed to the success of the occult living room. And I’m very honored that he would say the intentions were so. I do think of it like a community service project. I’ve always liked the idea of there being people working together in groups for things other than monetary gain or like clout or something just like that. People working together for a sincere cause. And I’ve done things like that for my past, and this one just happens to be an endeavor like that with the occult. And you always see that necessarily in occult spaces too.


Andrieh Vitimus: But in some cases, everyone involved is gaining clout. That might not have been your initial attention, but you’re getting attention and attention in the modern era is equal to cloud. It defines the flows of energy in a way that is actually kind of giving you more of a voice on the greater acculture. And here you are, deeper down the rabbit hole. Right? But it’s not just I did like the articles that I read, and when I can get there. Some of the discussion is pretty interesting, obviously, like me being the worst because I’ve got too much work to do, but I can admit that. But, yeah, even though your intention might not have gone there, you definitely have the aspect that you might not have done it for the attention, but certainly the intention is a reward you’re getting. Yeah.


 Sasha Smith: And I think maybe with what I understand what you’re saying there, and I think that maybe somehow we associate that word clout with I feel like it can be in the direction of, like, chauvinism and maybe being, like, boastful. I feel like it’s more in that direction. Simply just I don’t even want to use popularity, but if it was simply just, like, reach, maybe I could say that. Nothing wrong with that, but I feel like it’s not the the initial goal right off the bat was not to make money. That was definitely not in the forefront. 


So I think sometimes when it’s one or two steps removed and there’s that monetary motivation there somewhere nearby, I think it can be obvious. And at least for us, that was not but the main it’s worked in the inverse, where we’ve tried to put a lot of work to make the articles very special, very unique. And in turn, that’s really been something back that’s really been picked up on as far as the search engines. And it’s made it like a little bit of an outlier, I think, with a cult blog. I agree that that has the result, definitely. It has taken off more than what I would have getting right.


Zachary Lui: So in taking off at such a level, this now introduces competitiveness, because you’re talking about SEO, you’re talking about keywords and things like that. So how’s that implementing into the egregore? And how does this go into just the thing of competitiveness in the occult field now?


 Sasha Smith: It’s a good question, too, and I think that within the sphere of maybe there’s a few other blogs, some other types of groups that I feel like are doing something kind of in the same vein. And I think, at least in my opinion, I think in that way, like, when one of them succeeds, we succeed more. And I think that there’s not necessarily a market that’s been cornered. And it’s like, you got all the readers over here and we can’t have any. If you read ours, then you probably might find.


Zachary Lui: All right, Sasha seems to have cut off. He’ll come back on, probably.


Jayme Rose: And that’s when we take a shot, right?


Zachary Lui: That’s when we take a shot. Internet does this sometimes. Do you have anything to add here, Jamie?


Jayme Rose: Well, I was thinking in terms of competitiveness. Yeah. I think that isn’t something that personally, I’ve thought too hard about it’s more. Personally, when I write, I’m more thinking I want to reach out to people who might just so happen to benefit from whatever I’m putting out there. But that is certainly true. Of course there is a hierarchy whenever you hit the search button of all these different resources. 


But I think that’s part of why having a distinctive aesthetic, so to speak, is helpful because there’s a whole sea of different blogs that are trying to make occult content, obviously. And I think that by not going in with this mindset, oh, we got to get to the top, we got to win, we got to find a way to make this profitable, we got to get clout. Even if those things do happen to come out of it, it still, I think, ironically, makes us more attractive and more likable because we’ve come off far more authentically in a space where, in my opinion, spirituality, the occult, all of that, I think it requires authenticity.


Zachary Lui: Right, so this gets into the fun conversation we were having previously, which is marketing versus magic. So what’s everyone’s perspective on it?


 Sasha Smith: Yeah, the point made earlier about marketing is magic. Yeah, I would not argue with that. I would say that what I was talking about with Jamie at one point was that maybe when you have this really very commercially side of marketing and you have something esoteric, I think by the nature of those two things, they don’t always go together or people don’t know how to pair them in a way that’s not disingenuous to either. And I think that’s very fine line to ride where’s that disingenuous to either.


Andrieh Vitimus: I mean, from the 1970s on, you have pulp occult fiction or pop occult books that are like New Avatar. Power from the could even make an argument that Crowley, like, wouldn’t be known right now if it wasn’t for the fact that his marketing was so good. Even when we get down to the Greek medicine and Hermes the Hustle. The hustle is all part of sort of all part of the process, right? In a way, like, for every person turned off by Crowley, five people heard of him and they might never have gotten into the cult if it wasn’t for Crowley because they heard the name and he became a self legend. Is it what is the line there? I’m like, yes, you have like, obviously we can kind of talk about discernment and that’s kind of a real problem. That’s a different problem of discerning that the fictional marketing character might not be the person like Crowley’s. Self representation might not be the magician, or public representation might not be the magician, or I think we mentioned some other people that have difficult personas obey’s personal projecting. If LeVay didn’t have such good marketing, no one would know his name. And clearly that was some over the top stuff done.


Zachary Lui: It was real over the top.


Andrieh Vitimus: From some ritual points of view. I would see that that’s crass. It’s over the top. It’s carney. And he admitted all that. He basically said, that’s the point. That’s the point in away. It’s a difficult what would the balance be now? Granted, now we’re in the age of sort of a counter narrative where only certain things are allowed, although I don’t know that that’s going to last long either.


 Sasha Smith: Yeah, I understand what you’re saying about that and I think I majored in business and also went to school for English. And I think that when I take into account, like, the businessy side of things, I would say that there’s a tension maybe between marketing and advertising. And I would also say that.


Andrieh Vitimus: What.


Sasha Smith: Could work for one person in their style, there could be a very bodacious way to go about it, like with anything. And that can be very effective for that kind of style. And I think this kind of glitz and glamour, especially with certain types of music, I think that aesthetic works totally with certain things, but I think for other artists, for other authors, whatever, that doesn’t work so well. And I follow a lot of like I read like business blogs and stuff too. And I think that there are certain things that I feel like from a perspective with business, what I like is first, I like to give people something that they can have and they can hold onto, and I’m not going to charge them anything for it.


I want to give really great content on websites they have for free, and then from there, there might be something that can be offered. And I think some people go for the sell in the first line. And I think that it’s not an effective strategy, in my opinion, in business. Like if I was selling insurance or something, when people feel like you’re immediately trying to get them to buy something, they don’t like that. And I think it’s also true with advertising for, I think, a blade. An example of this is when people put things on Facebook and they won’t say something and chime in in relation to a question somebody asks, they won’t observe it and do this in a reactionary way. It will be something like, hey, go check out my whatever. So essentially it’s like saying, hey, you go do this for me, someone you don’t know. And I think that’s always the wrong.


Andrieh Vitimus: Yeah. No, I totally agree. From a business standpoint, that is totally not the way to do it. But that’s not a failing in the cult. That’s a failing of people.


Zachary Lui: Well, that’s a poor strategy, right?


Andrieh Vitimus: Go to other groups that are not a cult, like even Business or Photoshop tips, and people will have a discussion about how to do, like how to do a mask correctly. And someone will be like, well, I have a course for that here, click here. You’ve never seen them in the comments at all, right? Yeah, not part of the discussion. So that’s just a bad business move. But it’s kind of like this marketing issue. I kind of feel like the marketing issue gets to one of the core demons of all occultism and spirituality. When I hire a plumber, I have to pay them because they know how to fix the plumbing. 


But, you know, there’s a lot of people who have vast knowledge and skills in spiritual matters and they actually make real world differences in people. And the idea is we don’t have to pay them for their knowledge and so they have to make a living in something other than their passion. It gets to the core, sort of it’s like, why do we go to festivals and the presentations suck? Well, they suck because it’s at best a hobby for a lot of the people, right? Because they don’t have the resources to make it, to perfect it, to get mastery. Like they’re not approaching it like it’s a work work relationship or not work. 


Some people just blow off work too. But I mean, they can’t professional. Yeah, they can’t follow their vocation because the vocation is difficult to follow. And this marketing aspect gets to that. The hatred of marketing actually is sort of like another manifestation to me of this sort of demon where these people have a lot of expertise, certainly like what I’ve seen in a cult living room. Everyone has a lot of expertise and passion when they’re writing their articles. So it’s not just for money, but they know what they’re sort of researching. They spent time on it. And yes, giving people stuff for free is awesome and that makes it kind of go forward. 


But then again, on the flip side of that, even if those people a lot of those people wanted to sort of commit to this as a vocation, even if they spent the time necessary to make it a vocation, like a doctor, which some of us spent that much time learning, actually. Learning occult materials. I think me and Zac have spent the equivalent of a masters more than the time necessary.


Zachary Lui: Yeah, we’ve hit the 10,000 hours mastery point and then a lot more.


Andrieh Vitimus: But then what do we do? We still have day jobs, right? And that’s kind of like a kind of weird quality that probably always goes back to gardener, actually, in a way.


Jayme Rose: There is something that I think that is unique about the occult as opposed to other skills, which you may spend all that time harboring and might decide to monetize is the occult. I guess it’s similar to a religion in the sense that we are talking about the stuff of our reality here. We’re talking about these huge things like why are we here? What is our true will with this life? What is the fullest potential of what we can do while we are here in these bodies? That’s such huge subjects. And in some sense, are those subjects not worth their weight in gold in the time that you’ve put into it anyway, even if you don’t sell it or. Is there not value purely in just sharing it with others? And that’s not monetize it. But is there room for that gray area?


Andrieh Vitimus: I think certainly when you’re doing it for yourself, it’s worth its weight in gold. However, when you start to learn how to help people, you’re not in the same role as you’re just doing self alchemy anymore. There’s a different set of processes. You have to learn it for yourself first. Right, but then there’s a different set of processes when you apply it to other people. And there’s an old axiom always make sure the shaman eats right? Because even the shaman is helping the village make the crops grow. If they don’t get fed, why would they make the crops grow? Would be worried about survival, right. 


If you look at what happens in countries that are not Western, the role of a spiritual teacher has a very different role. Like in China, where his ex family comes from, in India, the role of a guru person is they’re actually fed. They make sure people can live. Right? They take money off the table right off the bat. Because if you take money off the table, then yes, what you’re saying is true. Like, they can live, they have a house, they have food, they have attention, like to take all the basic stuff off the table. So a person can actually do that kind of stuff. But that’s not in Western culture, right? Like Western culture, everything is reduced to a commodity. And that gets back to the marketing aspect. 


So the intentions even in the occult living room, although attention is pure, like it started from a pure place, you’re still getting that attention, right? You’re still it’s still the commodity that feeds the egregore that makes it. So that way you can have the type of community that you want. Because if the egregore wasn’t getting fed attention, you wouldn’t be able to have a community of like minded people, right? New people wouldn’t come, people would drop off and things would die out. So the currency here isn’t money like in a cult living room. It’s still like what I was getting back to. There’s a currency of attention in exchange. What’s being provided is this safe space that’s communally good and growing. But there’s still a different commodity right? Now, again, I think Sasha is paying for those servers, right?


 Sasha Smith: Yeah, it’s definitely true. And yeah, I was going to say, too, that also technically marketing. You can do marketing for charity organizations. Technically, I think that there’s not the idea of there being a sale with marketing, but I would say monetizing would be like a different thing. And there’s been times with the occult living room so far where I really felt like the article was so good that I wanted people to see it. And I knew it was going to help us as far as dig into the search engines. But the article was so good that I just wanted to pay, have that advertised, people would see it and so it would gain traction. And there is a commodity. Yeah, there’s absolutely a commodity there that isn’t necessarily financial commodity. And working with that for now, and I think at some point there will be this we’ve talked about it for a while element, but I think it’s not going to be necessarily a for profit monetization.


Andrieh Vitimus: You kind of see what I’m getting at, right? Like, you’re paying money for the servers. You just mentioned a situation where you’d love to have kind of put some just because you loved the art, let’s call it art. Like, you love the article so much that you’d love to have put some resources towards actually getting it out there more and out of love. But there comes a point where that’s what I was getting at. It’s like this issue with the marketing and the cult is sort of like, yes, there are some people who completely they just want to make profit, although some of those, some of the worst apparent offenders of that are, I think, not the worst. They’re more honest about what they’re trying to do. 


And I truly respect the just blatant honesty, in some cases, true. We were talking about EA a little bit coedding, who’s a controversial thing, controversial artist, but he understands he’s trying to make money. There’s a lot of other cultists that I find and authors that I find, they kind of lie about what their motivation is. They’re trying to make it sound spiritual, but really their goal is making money. To me, that’s like far, far. Certainly I want to make enough money to keep my store open, maybe not have a day job, but I can respect the blatant kind of this is my goal, but I’m still producing material that’s useful.


Jayme Rose: I want to be able to make this thing self sustaining, and I want fame and glory and riches. I think there’s a huge difference between those two things. Even though the occult living room isn’t particularly monetized right now, as far as I know, it would be nice if.


Andrieh Vitimus: Sasha, to me, those three things are not necessarily the same. Fame, glory and riches aren’t the same. And what Sasha said about business is right there. You can have a very successful business that kind of deals with spiritual aspects and not have fame or glory per se. Like you could just do good community, I mean, in a way that’s kind of a model of Queen City curio, right? 


We have community temples. We don’t really have interest outside of getting Toronto people to come to the store, but we really don’t have that much interest in fame or glory now. We don’t really care about riches per se, but we want enough to make everyone get paid and have a useful store where we can provide value to the community and the people who come to the store, which is what Sasha was getting at, right? Like we’re providing value in a real way, but fame and glory, those aren’t the same thing. 


A lot of people which gets to the marketing and kind of magic and kind of even what we’re talking about, a lot of people do things just for glory. Right? So you see a lot of some of the oh, look, we’ve got our famous, famous spammer, Terror Destroyer, back in action, probably. Well, we don’t have women on the show today, tarot Destroyer. So you can’t heckle them, I guess, but whatever, right? But our famous heckler is back today. So there we go. We just noticed that. Shout out to our favorite hater.


Jayme Rose: Kind of what I meant by glory is clout. Like we were talking about before, there’s attention, there’s money and there’s attention. And those are in terms of inauthentic goals, those are two of the biggest ones.


Andrieh Vitimus: But why that’s what I’m challenging. Why is that an inauthentic goal?


 Sasha Smith: I think it’s the placement. It’s the placement of that goal. Is clout at the top or is, you know, I want to be an effective occultist? Is that at the top? Or I want to be a professional occultist.


Andrieh Vitimus: Right, so this gets to a great point, right? Because for me, that question that you asked right there is probably one of the hardest answers. Is that clout the same as being an effective occultist? I would answer absolutely not. So I’m with you, I’m the devil’s advocate today, but no, it absolutely is not. However, if your goal is to run a spiritual business and not be a little bit cultist, is the goal then of getting attention and clout more productive to what your actual goals are? 


And then in which case you’re actually, in a way, correctly providing your will, you’re correctly projecting your will onto the world, as in you’re taking Crowley’s definition of willful action, the art of science and willful of action almost directly in relation to a goal that you directly stated, which is a sort of business goal. Now, it could be a goal that none of us necessarily agree with, right. But it still meets all the criteria for measured magic, right? Like it’s effective measured magic to use marketing to build this thing that you happen to be interested in. We know of a store in Toronto that the people involved in the store, they don’t even like anything about conjurer spiritual stuff. And they don’t, they just kind of inherited a business and it’s successful, and they’re successful.


Zachary Lui: They just take it and run away.


Andrieh Vitimus: Just for that in line with what they know is going to sell. And it’s a success, very successful business, but from their point of view, they have no interest in any of it.


Zachary Lui: Yeah, you ask them about the problems and other products. You ask them, do you do anything? They’re like, nah, we just sell stuff point blank.


Andrieh Vitimus: They’re openly honest about it. They never lie. They tell you point blank they don’t do any of this stuff. They know how to put the stuff together because that’s what their job, that’s what the store requires for them to know. And that’s it. That’s what they want.


 Sasha Smith: So then would you say that if we’re to kind of recap this, that with those two things, if we have, for example, clout in one position and we have making a living being effective or something like this, is it the way that you orient them as which one is the prime focus and which one is the secondary focus? Is that really kind of what it comes down to? I know Kiosks here I always found.


Andrieh Vitimus: That actual effective magic is sort of in a counter. It’s not quite counter, but it’s somewhat counter to effective marketing. Or I wouldn’t say it’s counter, that’s the word. But it’s like oppositional, somewhat oppositional like authentic magic or being good magician.


Jayme Rose: Very interesting. This marketing combo is kind of turning into left hand versus right hand. And I very much agree with that because I was just kind of thinking at this point it’s nearly an ethical discussion. Like yeah, marketing is an act of magic in a sense. You’re projecting your will into action, of course, but now we’re talking about is it cool to do any kind of an occult business purely for the sake of monetization and popularity or is it essential for your intentions to be to help people or not?


Andrieh Vitimus: So let me take the counternarra to that again. Remember, officially I will state the Queen City curio position so that way people don’t get confused that it’ll be the devil’s advocate. Because if they do, they could go back 5 seconds in the video and hear that. Basically our goal is to provide a working safe ritual space, a spiritual education to produce meaningful results across the greater Toronto and world level thing. Because we believe that spirituality is a spiritual is actually a technology that can be mastered as like several other technologies can be mastered and manipulated to bring about better outcomes from all of us. So that said is that a good summary, Zac?


Zachary Lui: No, that’s a very good summary, sir.


Andrieh Vitimus: Very good. That said, the devil’s advocate approach would be sort of like if someone does store or they are doing a community group that has no real benefit. Let’s not say it has no real benefit. What I’m trying to say is they have no intention of benefit. Their intention is purely like the one conduit store to just go ahead and sell goods and they sell quite a bit of goods. I’m somewhat envious of the amount of goods they actually sell at that store. So do you then value what is based on their intention or the ultimate outcome? 


Because now you can look at the community people who buy stuff and get into an different ethical framework to say, yes, their intention was not pure, but in a purely utilitarian point of view, the people using the material are getting benefits. Even if they’re learning from other places, or even if the original intention wasn’t pure, they themselves are producing a positive kind of waveform. I’d argue some of the worst offenders of marketing with magic seem to have this effect. Crowley being one. Like, does Crowley life be anything that someone should emanulate? No, probably not. Right? Maybe, but that’s an opinion, my personal opinion. 


Right. However did Crowley’s life create the foundations of modern occultism because it was so outlandish? Yeah, well, the effects of that could actually be that more people got into spiritual a lot more people got into spirituality and magic because even though his intention might not have been pure, that the outcome was good or the outcome was better, even though it seemed to get into even though we could take issues with how it was done. 


Similarly, like this occult store, I’m absolutely sure people go in there and I can look whenever I’m in there and look at what they’re buying and seeing some of the same people come in there and look at what they’re buying and it’s basically trauma related clearing and cleansing for trauma. Like, I know that looking at what they’re buying right away is the value they’re getting out of that overcome sort of the initial intention, because it doesn’t matter, because the individual is getting value out of something that otherwise might not have started with a positive intention, but yet for them it has a positive result.


 Sasha Smith: I agree, it’s true. And some people, for example, Crowley, that put is better. But I think the big difference there is that with that story, what you said is they were upfront about it. And I think that they’re not really into it and they inherited it and they just run like any business as if it were any product that was being sold. And I think it’s a little bit different when someone is saying rituals, they’re familiar with the goods. And I think with those people, they don’t see it that way or they’re not trying to necessarily see it that way.


Andrieh Vitimus: Or you were breaking up for a second.


Zachary Lui: You were breaking up for a second.


 Sasha Smith: Am I breaking up now?


Andrieh Vitimus: No. You know what that means? Take shot.


Zachary Lui: There’s been a lot of shots taken, people. It’s like Saturday. You got the rest of the day. Pace yourself. Pace yourself.


Andrieh Vitimus: Yeah.


 Sasha Smith: So I think what I was saying is with that example, when someone is trying to say one thing, but then they’re taking the other route, like they’re saying, hey, this is authentically what I do. I want to inspire people to do occultism. And then if someone’s just saying, hey, it’s just a business. So I think it’s a different perspective from the ground up. If you’ve got someone that’s presenting a facade, essentially and saying it’s one thing when it’s not who are upfront with their intentions and they’re just so I think that the prior is something that we want to avoid. 


We want to avoid trying to say that, hey, this is authentically what we’re interested and what we want to do, doing this out of good intention and then turn around and just try to slap a price tag on it. So I think that’s where the problem is. I think that that store, condor store, I think that I don’t necessarily have a problem with what they’re doing because they are upfront with it and they would let you know. So that’s how I see it.


Andrieh Vitimus: But what about mixed intentions too? That gets even harder.


Jayme Rose: There is also a difference, I think, between the example of a store just selling products versus what the occult living room is, for example, which is a whole bunch of practitioners writing information for other practitioners. I think that in one of things it’s very possible to just honestly be, yeah, I’m not a practitioner myself, I just sell the things versus from one practitioner to another. I’m communicating and giving information. I feel like in one of those, authenticity is far more important, I think.


Andrieh Vitimus: Well, let’s play the devil’s advocate again. I seem to being playing the devil’s advocate again. You are selling something. You are definitely selling something at the occult living room and you discussed that the first part of the show. You are selling a safe space where people can do exactly what you just described, which means everyone involved because all communication is persuasion. From an NLP point of view, you’re definitely trying to persuade people that you’re not doing it over the top. And so blatantly but you definitely are trying to persuade people that this is a better way of interacting. 


That’s really the goal. That’s where Sasha said, okay, I’m tired of people interacting this way online. That isn’t necessarily we’re getting back to the moral issues of what’s your intention, but we definitely are. You don’t have the same intention as say, the conjure store, which will go unnamed, but you are in fact, Ivy said is exactly what I believe. You’re always selling something by being alive, by the choices you make. But it sort of gets back to the marketing versus magic versus having a good positive intention. 


So in your community, what is being sold? Is that idea. Like there’s an idea and that’s not necessarily it’s an idea we can argue about. Personally, I think it’s a pretty good idea. I mean, Zac, what do you think? Good idea. Yeah, good idea. But it’s still something that’s trying to percolate through and it’s starting to ripple through the general kind of vibe. That’s why you’re getting attention, because the sales pitch is good. You’re filling a niche of people who are tired of that kind of conflictual cultism.


 Sasha Smith: Yeah, I agree that in that way we are selling something and you could even Go Back To The egregore. And you could say that by getting people to pay attention and to be involved or to read or just on the blog. This is feeding the egregore. And I think that would be fair enough to say, but then break it up again.


Zachary Lui: Sasha.


Andrieh Vitimus: Everyone has to drink again. Apparently.


Zachary Lui: This is going to be a rough show on the drinking man, people.


Andrieh Vitimus: So much alcoholism.


 Sasha Smith: Could I get easier by deactivating my webcam? Would that maybe keep me from possibly.


Zachary Lui: If you have that, possibly give it a test.


 Sasha Smith: Okay, let’s see if this works any better.


Andrieh Vitimus: Okay. I should have taken a picture real fast. I could have dragged over the picture and put it over the top of you.


 Sasha Smith: So with the egregore, you could argue that with getting people to look at the site, to come to interact in the discord or just to acknowledge the occult living room, it is feeding the egregore in some ways, right? And that can be. When you said we’re selling something, we’re selling an idea. And I think that if you look at it, then what does that egregore serve, or who does that egregore serve, or what’s the purpose of that aggregate? I think it is there to benefit those very people. And that way, if the egregore is there to benefit me, it would be different. But if it’s seen in that way, then I feel like that’s why it’s kind of like a community service project or an outreach or it’s like an NGO or a nonprofit because it’s going back in Self. And that egregore is essentially helping the very people that put the eyeballs on it. 


So it’s regenerative in that way for now. And I think that when we start with the merchandise, which we’ve talked about it for a while, we’re going to put services there for like tarot and for some other things for spellwork and think that where we will start from with the merchandise is we will have there’s been a few things that include the talisman on them. And it would be something where when you buy this talisman or we’ve had a few different wooden ones made. We’ve been messing around with different ways to make the talisman and put it on. Something that could be used during ritual to evoke our egregore. 


And I think that when we’re putting that into it and we’re getting the egregore that sigil that talisman out in the world, I think in some ways that’s a bit like advertising, because the person that uses it, they will receive the benefit of what that egregore offers, but also it will be there in their space. Somebody will see it. They’ll be like, hey, what’s this thing? Or what? Do you have this on your wall? Or what does this mean? And I think in that way, that can be a very pure, occult word of mouth. Advertising can mean a lot more than spamming some Facebook groups or taking out ads. For example. And it works in both ways, where it strengthens the Egypt, I think, directly. And it also people see this symbol somewhere, they want to know what it is.


Jayme Rose: Right.


Andrieh Vitimus: Go ahead, Jamie.


Jayme Rose: Yeah, I was just going to say and when it comes to selling this idea of our mission statement, which is there’s a better way for us to engage with each other as practitioners, that benefits all of us. I think that being able to sell that quote unquote is an award in of itself a reward in itself.


Andrieh Vitimus: It’s not quote unquote. I mean, I know that you hate the aspect of the wording, but it definitely is a sales pitch that’s okay.


Jayme Rose: This capitalist society, yes, it can be compared to a sales pitch.


 Sasha Smith: It’s a sales pitch to something that doesn’t cost anything, but can also benefit you.


Andrieh Vitimus: That’s where traditional product was before saying there is a cost. There’s a cost in Jamie’s time, there’s a cost in you paying servers, there’s a cost in your time, there’s a cost in the kind of thing and you are getting benefits. It’s not like there’s no benefits either. This kind of goes back to the chat where people were saying it’s like the left hand path versus right hand path. 


Right, left hand path fundamentally does not necessarily believe in altruism. Right? Like, if you look at LeVay’s writing and things, they believe that altruism is people do things because there’s benefits for them. We could argue that point. But in away there is a lot of benefits. You get to talk with other practitioners, have like minded people. You get to feel good about helping those people. These are all tangible benefits that are occurring in general. And there’s a cost, like I said, there’s a lot of hours. I know for a fact, Sasha, you are spending 20 plus hours a week on this and possibly more like time.


Zachary Lui: Energy, focus, all those things.


Andrieh Vitimus: Probably more like a 40 hours week, right.


 Sasha Smith: A lot more time on it than what people would imagine. Because I’m very perfectionistic with the articles when they come out and with the posts and everything and the curation. Yeah, there’s definitely a lot more time for the content, the time to content ratio, you would expect more. But I think I’m also trying to put up something with every article to be something that actually has longevity and will not be something that’s irrelevant in a few months, for example, or even a few years.


And I feel like with every piece of content that’s on there, there is something that will stay longer than just like, oh, that’s from 2020, or that’s from 2021. And it’s got this timestamp on it. And I’ve tried to do the same with the artwork, too. So, yeah, there is, you know, for me, honestly, sometimes I think, why am I doing this? I was thinking about it over Christmas. I was like I could be doing so many other things and in some way it’s like tempting, but at the end of it, I do have a real passion for it and there is that benefit. 


And sometimes that benefit is hard to see when there’s like ton of if I’m working overtime at work, I’ve got small children and I’m doing this. So sometimes that benefit, it’s kind of a toss up sometimes, but I know it’s still there and it’s been a driving factor, it’s been more of that than it has been of a burden. But sometimes it is point where I feel like I don’t want to do this for a little bit and I have to just kind of take a break, do my own practice. And that’s what’s essential, I think, to keeping this from burning out. Because one of the questions I remember you had mentioned was how do you keep it going? 


And I was thinking more about like instead of how do you keep it going, it’s like how do you keep it from burning out or self destructing. And I think this was something that just happened kind of recently with a pretty popular discord server. It just kind of blew up and fragmented and people scattered to other servers. So I think that in some ways it’s trying just not to get hit as opposed to doing something specifically. But yeah, you’re right about the benefit there. But sometimes I think the benefit is not always immediately apparent to me. Even sometimes for a series of days, I feel like it can be a bit of a chore. But then the reward is that much greater. It’s just I can’t see it always in those moments.


Andrieh Vitimus: Right. Well, like I said, I know for a fact it’s 20 to 40 or 60 hours a week that having tried similar projects and came to the conclusion maybe it wasn’t worth it. I know for a fact that you’re spending probably that long. And I could see it like everyone watching Sasha, people were joking calling him the benevolent dictator, but really spending a lot of time.


Zachary Lui: You spend a lot of time.


Andrieh Vitimus: That’s why I was kind of like, yeah, there is a cost and the egregore is sort of convincing you of that cost and that’s what makes it worthwhile. But there is personal costs, right. Sasha could do a better job at this if he didn’t have a day job.


 Sasha Smith: Yeah, definitely.


Andrieh Vitimus: He would have more time, would be tired, he could spend more time on his own personal magic. And this gets to the crux of the issue. Now, I could say, well, it’s just a capitalist society, but that would also be true in non capitalist society too. The ideas still have to sort of take hold that people will invest the resources whether it’s time or not. Unless we’re in the Federation dental for United Federation of Planets, just do this and you don’t have to have a daily you just do it out of passion and be okay. Yes. My understanding of Federation economics yeah, old school Federation economics. I don’t know about the new movies, so I better not talk about them.


Zachary Lui: You made the reference. You’re good. You’re good, sir.


Andrieh Vitimus: Okay, good. I got my nerd points for the day. Okay. I feel successful.


Sasha Smith: Yeah. But I think I completely agree. I could do it better if I was doing it full time. And it brings me back, or it makes me think back to before COVID hit. I was busking a lot, and I work as a teacher, but I also busk a lot. And this point, some point, I was making more money from busking and playing music on the street than I was making from my day job. And I never asked anybody for money. And the thing was that I would go there and I would play sometimes for very long, and I would always interact with people, always say, what’s up? 


And the idea is that if you support this, if you think it’s cool that there’s someone playing, like didgeridoo with drum machines on the side of the street with some lights and the bass is bumping, if you think that’s cool, then you can give money for that. And I don’t feel disingenuous for that because what does it go to? Yeah, it goes to me doing this. It goes to the food that I bought on the way home or my train ticket and so on. 


And I think that some people, when you’re upfront with that and they see, okay, hey, this is cool. I really like to see this. I’ll put a little bit of money in in hopes of this being something that continues and that I can see again. And I think that that kind of attitude, I think, with busking is what really propelled me to where the idea was that I’m just doing it and I don’t have to twist anyone’s arm to give me something in return. I don’t ask anyone. 


There’s not even a sign there that says, hey, anything helps, or some shit like that. No, it was just there would be a cup there and it would be kind of nicely put. There not something I mean, it would be more of like a pot for a plant, but it was very nicely presented. And people put stuff in there. People would put a lot of stuff in there. And that was the relationship. And I kind of with the occult living room and the idea of Monetizing, I want to keep or stay to that same principle where I don’t feel like I have to necessarily even pitch to anyone. 


But I would like it where, for example, when we start offering some services and some other things that people still receive that benefit of what the articles offer and what the discord offers, and if they want to support us, then. They could take some of the classes we’re offering and we don’t even have to necessarily go on Facebook and say, like, hey, this new occult class on this we’re offering it, come get it now before it gets booked up. 


So I want to go from the ground up in this way. And there’d be several ways where people can interact that can be involved and then don’t necessarily have to spend money, but do so because they authentically, really have consciously chosen to. I want that customer base as opposed to somebody that’s convinced from a flashy ad or a well placed ad, even with algorithms. I think that if we could go from this way into the monetization, that would be the purest way to keep in line with the principles to keep the egregore fed and to keep the whole thing sustaining. Otherwise, I don’t think it will sustain if I try to go too fast or try to just, I don’t know, get some money pumped into it quickly.


Andrieh Vitimus: Well, you effectively described a content management business, a content marketing management business, an effective content marketing management business in a nutshell, like of how the process actually goes and how you do it. Our spammer, once again, is making weird. Our hater usually insults women. It’s making kind of weird comments about self love and getting caught and getting arrested in Burger King. So whatever works. Whatever works.


Jayme Rose: I saw that once it got first posted, I was like, oh. And the chat went silent after that. Amazing.


Zachary Lui: Well, this is our honorary spammer. Dedicated.


Andrieh Vitimus: There’s a couple of people come on that dedicatedly hate us and make comments that are just really weird and inappropriate. Yeah. That said, besides our weird oddity a couple right. We feed on the hate young padawan. We’re both sick anyway. Besides all that, we posted the link to the discord discord in the chat already. But maybe you could kind of you can do a search where it’s the cult living room. They have lots of articles, as we alluded to they have some articles. Sasha is always trying to get me to write more articles. I might have a little more time now that I sort of got a different job. So not a hate filled job of.


Sasha Smith: Start facilitating some more articles out of you?


Andrieh Vitimus: Yeah, facilitating, yeah.


Sasha Smith: For everyone that doesn’t know it’s, the occultlivingroom.com, it’s spelled just like you think it would be spelled. And you could also find us on Instagram and less or so on Twitter. But discord, you can find it from the.com from the main site, too. So anyone that hears this, I would really encourage them. I’d be happy to see them there.


Andrieh Vitimus: For all my devil’s advocate stuff aside, it is a good group of people even if you disagree with them at times. Lots of people, they don’t get in fights, none of us. Occult, witch wars, stuff like that. And I don’t want people to think I don’t like them. I do like them. That’s people that I like get the devil’s advocate because it’s good radio.


 Sasha Smith: You’re a contributor on the occult living room. So yeah, I would hope that you.


Andrieh Vitimus: Like you would hope that people would understand these bastards. I know, right? But I mean, if I think if people go back and listen to the show, this is a substantially good radio show. There’s a lot of interesting there’s a.


Zachary Lui: Lot of interesting points.


Andrieh Vitimus: Drunk, amount of drinking that you have to do if you’re playing the deeper dun rat roll drinking game. Now, that said, we did our community service. We even talked about our public free our public free shrines that we have for the Queen City Curio. Right?


Jayme Rose: Tech.


Andrieh Vitimus: But we do have stuff coming up, don’t we?


Zachary Lui: Yes, we do.


Andrieh Vitimus: For sponsors, for people, actually. Lights on next week.


Zachary Lui: We got your double feature. You got that micro ritual coming up and you got the pendulum for Beginners coming up. So that’s next Sunday, 1:30 and 6:00.


Andrieh Vitimus: P.M.. And then after that we have the next weekend, we’re going to have a ganesh ritual.


Zachary Lui: Ganesh is fresh ganesh.


Andrieh Vitimus: Yeah. And then on Easter, we’re going to do a Christos ritual. We’re going to summon Jesus. Just cause the gnostic jesus.


Zachary Lui: The gnostic.


Andrieh Vitimus: Jesus. Still the Christos spirit.


 Sasha Smith: I was about to say which one?


Andrieh Vitimus: Yeah, well, the one that can imbue different bodies from Gnostic core spirit of love and messaging. That comes from the gnostic christosus tied to Sophia. Not necessarily the Republican Jesus here in the States or the Republican Jesus in not Republican, it would be conservative Jesus in Canada. Right. And then, of course, we kind of like we’re working out the new classes for sponsors. So how much is it for a sponsor to get all the classes for how much? A month? Plus our library, which has got like 1500 books that people could just check out, which you can well, it depends.


Zachary Lui: On what sponsor you get. If you just want to come to one event a month and you want access to a library, that’s $10 a month. If you want access to all the workshops, past and present and future, that’s $40 a month subscription plus access to the library, that’s a lot. Three years of content.


Andrieh Vitimus: There’s other sponsorships to help us keep the lights on to you that are a little higher. That if you want rituals done for you, we could do that per month.


Zachary Lui: We could do that per month.


Andrieh Vitimus: Want coaching per month, we could do that. The thing is, we’re going to also with Stephanie Riser’s blessing and probable participation actually, she said all but said she was going to come.


Zachary Lui: Yeah, she said she was coming on.


Andrieh Vitimus: On air, publicly, keep it all mysterious. But starting July 1, we’re going to do all 72 Demons of the Gaisha, one after another. And we’re going to have a work, sort of a workbook for each demon and along with that, so that way it’s not imbalanced. We’re also at the same time going to roll through the 72 names of God, which controls the 72 demons, if you feel the need for such things. I don’t, but some people do. And the names of God are interesting in themselves. And so we’re going to do that every two weeks. So if you’re a sponsor, you can come to all those every two week sort of summonings. And we’re going to also have basic witchcraft classes still if you’re trying to just learn stuff. So obviously doing 72 demons is not basic witchcraft. I think chaos. Tarot is right. Wayne Gretzky probably is Canadian. Jesus.


Zachary Lui: He probably is, actually.


Andrieh Vitimus: I could see that.


Zachary Lui: I could see that.


Andrieh Vitimus: All right. But yes, 72 demons will be kind of rolling through the demon work for three years if you once every two weeks, like semaphores, which is the name of God, and demon work for three years. So if you’re sponsoring, those are going to be a lot of content. Yes, there is like a lot of actual transformative magic. So Stephanie ran this kind of demonic immersion. It took her a year and a half, but she was doing one a week. And she didn’t run the rituals at the end. We’re actually going to run a ritual for everyone, for every single one, and let people participate. And there’s something to be said if you can participate in the actual summoning. Generally speaking, if you’re dealing with people who know what they’re doing, your ability to summon that entity will be much better. It just gets into your energy system.


Zachary Lui: Well, you got the introduction, let’s put it that way.


Andrieh Vitimus: Yeah, you got a better introduction to understand what it’s about. Intuitively gnostically it’s there in your body then. So, yeah, all 72. All 72 Shem HaMephorash. So we can probably have more stuff like two rituals, one ritual every week, but basically like one sort of kind of workbook around how to set up the work for the demon for two weeks. And it does take about a couple of weeks to kind of just understand what you’re doing, getting the core materials and all that is going to be available to sponsors. But if you want to work with one demon particularly, you could just come for that. And we’ll have Ala carte, although it’s definitely not worth the membership.


Zachary Lui: No, the membership is worth it.


Andrieh Vitimus: Yeah, the membership is cheaper than the Ala carte.


Zachary Lui: Yeah.


Andrieh Vitimus: I don’t know anything else we got going on besides all that.


Zachary Lui: No, we got next week that’s going to be a double update. And then after that we got let’s pull up the Vin counter. So we got the Nash ritual. After that we got Figurine candles, and then we got the Guan Yin ritual. So we’re going to get all that posted up.


Andrieh Vitimus: When we do the Guan Yin ritual, we will almost certainly make the talisman in the middle of the ritual and consecrate the talisman for the public shrine. We will make that talisman then and then have that available in the public shrine, which is pretty cool. It’s kind of a micro temple. It’s like a small little room by the elevator. It’s got prayer flags all along it and you can kind of just sit there and pray. And it’s like other micro temple is sort of just out there in the hall and you can kind of just sit down and pray. So you really don’t have the room or your roommates get in the way. Because in Toronto, real estate is hard. This is like, yeah, just come by and like we said, work on it. The wish shrine, our wish rhine is taking a lot longer for us to build our shrento wish rhine than we thought. We’re going to get to get on that. If you’re in Toronto, you’re in Toronto, come see it. If you’re not in Toronto, but you’d like us to kind of put a camera out there, we could do that too.


Zachary Lui: We can absolutely do that. So let us know if you become.


Andrieh Vitimus: A sponsor and say, yeah, I want the sponsorship to buy this camera. We’ll go get some we’ll get some camera out there for that. I’ll put it on the shrine so you can work with it. Yeah.


Zachary Lui: So with that said, stay safe, stay healthy, and we’ll be back in a few hours for our next show.


Andrieh Vitimus: Yeah, we have a double feature this week.


Zachary Lui: We got double feature.


Andrieh Vitimus: The UK is like 7 hours ahead of us and never works out to have our normal show hour. So we’ll have a normal show. That’s how it is in the UK. It’s like you’re in the future, sasha and Jamie, you’re in the future.


 Sasha Smith: I think Jamie’s in your time zone. I’m in the future, though.


Andrieh Vitimus: Yeah, Sasha is in the it’s quite nice.


 Sasha Smith: Sasha’s in the future is tomorrow here, actually. So thanks for having us on, I appreciate it.


Andrieh Vitimus: So again, after all that spiel for our store, please check out the cult living room. They really are a great group of people, all devils aside, advocates aside, to make good radio, like, don’t have any of the conflict that you usually do with occult groups and that’s worth supporting in itself. There you go. That was my final pitch for you, Sasha. So everyone stay on for a minute. The show will kind of has to make sure.


Jayme Rose: Yes, thank you for having us.


Andrieh Vitimus: Deeper down the rabbit hole is sponsored by the Queen City Curio and Apothecary in Toronto, Ontario, proudly in East Chinatown. Our store is at 607 Gerrard Street East. Unit 401. Just take the elevator up to the fourth floor and we’re right there. We carry the finest spiritual goods for all spiritual paths. Whatever you are into, we can help check out our full public library of occult material with over a thousand books accessible anytime the store is open. Check us out online at queencitycurio.ca Be sure to leave a wish at our wish shrine right outside our door. You never know, it may just come to pass.